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Wall Street tumbles; Dow falls 800, closes down 370
Traders work on the New York Stock Exchange floor, Monday Oct. 6, 2008. Wall Street tumbled again Monday, joining a sell-off around the world as fears grew that the financial crisis will cascade through economies globally despite bailout efforts by the U.S. and other governments.
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Share and Enjoy NEW YORK -- Wall Street suffered through another extraordinary and traumatic session Monday, with the Dow Jones industrials plunging as much as 800 points — their largest one-day point drop — before recovering to close with a loss of 370.
The catalyst for the selling, which also took the Dow below 10,000 for the first time in four years, was investors' growing despair that the spreading credit crisis will take a heavy toll around the world.
Investors have come to the realization that the Bush administration's $700 billion rescue plan and steps taken by other governments won't work quickly to unfreeze the credit markets.
That sent stocks spiraling downward in the U.S., Europe and Asia, and drove investors to sink money into the relative safety of U.S. government debt. Fears about a global recession also caused oil to drop below $90 a barrel.
"The fact is, people are scared and the only thing they're doing is selling," said Ryan Detrick, senior technical strategist at Schaeffer's Investment Research. "Investors are cleaning out portfolios and getting rid of everything because nothing seems to be working."
The selling was so extreme that only 264 stocks rose on the NYSE — and 2,986 dropped. That's a telling sign considering the stock market is considered a leading economic indicator, with investors tending to buy and sell based on where they believe the economy will be in six to nine months.
The Dow fell as much as 800.06, then recovered in erratic trading to a loss of 369.88, or 3.58 percent, to close at 9,955.50, dropping below 10,000 for the first time since Oct. 29, 2004. The Dow surpassed its previous record for a one-day point decline — 778, which the blue chips suffered a week ago when investors feared the bailout package might not pass Congress.
Monday's stock trading extended what has been an extraordinary stretch of volatility, in which triple-digit drops in the Dow are becoming almost commonplace. The steep decline indicates that investors are becoming more convinced that the country is leading a prolonged economic crisis that is shifting to other nations.
"The market view is shifting from looking just at the misery of the financial sector to the global economy," said Georges Ugeux, chairman and chief executive of New York-based Galileo Global Advisors. "There are enough indication that two things are happening: The crisis is spreading to other sectors, and that it is becoming global."
Ugeux believes Monday's rout had little to do with any short-term problems facing the market, such as paralyzed credit markets or ailing financial companies. He believes that, regardless of the late-day rebound in stocks, "the reaction is clearly giving a downtrend and that there is a lack of confidence of investors into the future growth of the U.S. and the world economy."
Broader indexes also tumbled. The Standard & Poor's 500 index shed 42.34, or 3.85 percent, to 1,056.89; and the Nasdaq composite index fell 84.43, or 4.34 percent, to 1,862.96. The Russell 2000 index of smaller companies dropped 23.49, or 3.79 percent, to 595.91
Posted by mattq331 on October 6, 2008 at 8:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow - biggest non-news event of the day. Stocks go up, stocks come down. Big deal.
Posted by IXLR82 on October 6, 2008 at 8:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If the Government owned all businesses, this would never happen. Where is Obama when we need him?
Posted by sidd on October 6, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This could very well be a total economic collapse, the Dow could very well dive 30% this week.
What will the repercussions be?
Martial law, Bank holidays, food shortage? No one knows.
Be prepared have some extra food and some cash.
Posted by katiekurt on October 6, 2008 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Fortunately, Bush/McCain were there when we needed them...
Big government corporate bail-outs and PORK.
Posted by sidd on October 6, 2008 at 9:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Every country that gets run into the ground by the leaders has one thing in common.
The leaders pillage the finical system just as it is on the verge of collapse.
Posted by Americans4Liberty on October 6, 2008 at 10:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
THIS BAILOUT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND A VIOLATION OF OUR LIBERTY!!!
SHAME ON SEN. SALAZAR, AND REP'S DEGETTE, TANCREDO AND PERLMUTTER FOR VOTING YES ON THIS $800 BILLION DOLLAR BAILOUT BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!
The list for those voting for and against the bailout:
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/i...
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
Thomas Jefferson
Posted by Ralphie2 on October 6, 2008 at 10:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
www.KeatingEconomics.com
Posted by PCR on October 6, 2008 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This will effectively end the McCain campaign. We can only hope Obama can figure out how to help dig us out of this mess asap.
Posted by siggy1123 on October 6, 2008 at 10:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
PCR are you kidding. There are still people who will vote for McCain/Palin. I am shocked at how many people will still vote down their party lines just because. We call these people MORONS.
Posted by walongloop on October 6, 2008 at 10:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This is hardly a surprise. Economists have feared a sell-off as the election approaches, esp. if Obama is ahead in the polls.
With a $700B bailout, PLUS Obama's proposal for $1 Trillion in more spending, AND an increase in cap gains tax, is it any wonder that investors are spooked?
Obama isn't even elected yet, but his policies are already starting to decimate the economy.
N.B.: Only a fool would try to pin this on "Bush policy" as Obama tries to assert. Investors look at the future, not the past.
Posted by motiff on October 6, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Obama in a landslide.
Posted by mtbdad on October 6, 2008 at 10:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The reason Obama can ride this to victory is because it's a real issue. Something we all can debate on the merits. Not another market-tested straw-man distraction like Ayers.
Posted by mtbdad on October 6, 2008 at 10:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry IXLR82 but it's your party that just bought the banking system. It's hard to run from 8 years in the White House and 10 of the past 12 in the congress. If we had stayed out of Iraq we could have invested in the US in local jobs, infrastructure and education. All things we can't do now thanks to Republican control.
Posted by patriot007 on October 6, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And you thought that throwing $800+ billion at this problem would cause it to go away?
"An economy built on fiat money is a society on its way to ashes."
"Fascism is capitalism in decay." (Lenin)
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
no worries......... everything is being played out EXACTLY as planned.......
http://www.themoneymasters.com
Posted by respectsnothing on October 6, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It's the end of the world!!
Posted by siggy1123 on October 6, 2008 at 11:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It was the end of the world when George W took office. Money can buy you anything and since he has all the money in the world he can do anything he wants. He cares nothing for America. McCain will do the same thing.
Posted by darth on October 6, 2008 at 11:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
McCain's Tax Returns Hides Habitual Gambling Problem
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martha-...
Just the kind of leader we need now...
Posted by backrange on October 6, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You "2 party", us vs them, folks need to realize there is little, if any, difference between the Dems and Repubs.
Both sides were asleep on this crisis. Repubs in charge, but no big screams from Dems to increase regulation. In fact, the Dems believed everyone should be a home owner, and were instrumental in reducing regulations starting in 1999.
Both sides were getting political donations from Big Shots on Wall Street, so were disincented to change a damn thing.
I'd have more respect, and belief, that the Dems could "fix" this if they had been yelling about these abuses BEFORE they happened. Now, it just sounds like "told ya so" political BS.
As long as the American voting public continues to vote for "the lesser of 2 evils", there will be no change in course, just minor course "corrections."
And, if you're voting "YES" for someone simply as a "NO" vote against someone else, try voting "NO" to both major parties and vote for real change.
Posted by sidd on October 6, 2008 at 12:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I can’t believe you guys are still arguing about who is a better puppet show. Obama or Mcan?
They represent the same companies and the same interests..
Maybe you guys should expand your viewing and look at some of the 3rd party.
Posted by pygmy_owl on October 6, 2008 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Two words: Credit. Markets.
The stock market is a weak indicator of what's happening. It's bad for those with investments in stocks, but this is not the primary problem. The problem is in credit. If that doesn't free up, expect many more job losses.
Posted by FidelC on October 6, 2008 at 12:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Mattq331-
Yeah, it probably doesn't affect you much, except for a small drop in customers that want to supersize.
Posted by MayorMfumbo on October 6, 2008 at 12:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I bet we could get a lot of money from some countries and organizations for our surplus nuclear weapons ... maybe even balance the budget.
It will be too late to try selling nukes once someone beats us to the deal ... the result will be the same.
Posted by patriot007 on October 6, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"The only way to fix this economic mess that the international bankers have created is to return America to sound money principles, as prescribed in the U.S. Constitution. This means dismantling the Federal Reserve and the Internal Revenue Service, overturning the 16th Amendment and the personal income tax, and returning the American monetary system to hard assets: gold and silver. Anything short of this will only delay and worsen the inevitable collapse that has already begun." (Chuck Baldwin, Constitution Party)
If your favorite candidate is not even mentioning the need for a sound, constitutional monetary system as the basis of peace, freedom and prosperity, he isn't offering you any real change.
Posted by backrange on October 6, 2008 at 12:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks to our inept government (both parties included) there is one bright spot.
While you're driving around looking for work later this year, the price of gas will be down to around $2/gal.
Posted by KFC on October 6, 2008 at 12:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This election is a done deal. Obama wins easily. Great timing to come out with the Keating 5 scandal that McCain was involved in. Unfuriating to hear about Lehman executives paying themselves millions in bonuses right before the company sank. CEO got $300 million?? Wall Street has always been greedy but bringing this to light is going to help Obama tremendously.
Posted by truechangenotfauxchange on October 6, 2008 at 1:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
From URL: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releas...
President Bush Discusses Economic Rescue Plan
8:45 A.M. EDT - September 30, 2008
" It matters little what a path a bill takes to become law. What matters is that we get a law. "
The best candidates special interest money can buy or "Who Owns Whom?"
From URL: http://www.campaignforliberty.org/
Top 10 Corporate PAC Contributors:
Obama:
Goldman Sachs $739,521
UBS AG $419,550
Lehman Brothers $391,774
Citigroup Inc $492,548
Morgan Stanley $341,380
Latham & Watkins $328,879
Google Inc $487,355
JPMorgan Chase & Co $475,112
Sidley Austin LLP $370,916
Skadden, Arps et al $360,409
McCain:
Merrill Lynch $349,170
Citigroup Inc $287,801
Morgan Stanley $249,377
Wachovia Corp $147,456
Goldman Sachs $220,045
Lehman Brothers $115,707
Bear Stearns $108,000
JPMorgan Chase & Co $206,392
Bank of America $133,975
Credit Suisse Group $175,503
Those who voted YES received between R:$273,181.00ea to D:$212,700.00ea, those who voted NO received from R:$181,688.00ea, D:107,993.00.
From URL: http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/30/b...
House members who voted ‘yes’ on bailout received 54 percent more from banks/securities firms.»
According to research produced by MAPLight.org, House members who voted yes on the proposed bailout package received 54 percent more money from banks and securities than members who voted no:
[O]ver the past five years, banks and securities firms gave an average of $231,877 in campaign contributions to each Representative voting in favor of the bailout, compared with an average of $150,982 to each Representative voting against the bailout – 54 percent more money given to those who voted Yes.
Democrats who voted yes received “an average of $212,700 each, about twice as much as those voting No, $107,993.” Republicans who voted yes “received an average of $273,181 each, 50% more than those voting No, $181,688.”
Posted by walongloop on October 6, 2008 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
> And you thought that throwing $800+ billion at this problem would
> cause it to go away?
You're probably seeing an Obama-leading-in-the-polls effect.
The following NYT article reads eerily like a Nostradamus prediction. I can only wonder how many socialists and liberals thought that this was
such a terrific idea 9 years ago:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage...
> Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending By STEVEN A. HOLMES
> Published: September 30, 1999
> "In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among
> minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is
> easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from
> banks and other lenders."
> "The action ... will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages
> to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify
> for conventional loans. "
> "Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has
> been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to
> expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people"
> "''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in
> the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D.
> Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer."
> "In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie
> Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any
> difficulties during flush economic times. But the
> government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic
> downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the
> savings and loan industry in the 1980's.
> ''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another
> thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a
> resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail,
> the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it
> stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''"
> "Fannie Mae officials stress that the new mortgages will be extended
> to all potential borrowers who can qualify for a mortgage. But they
> add that the move is intended in part to increase the number of
> minority and low income home owners who tend to have worse credit
> ratings than non-Hispanic whites."
The lesson here SHOULD be that socialist experiments on a large scale are dangerous and can easily backfire. However Barack Obama wants to institute MORE OF THE SAME economic socialism at taxpayer expense.
Note: Raines (who made like $90 mil from Fannie) is now one of Obama's economic advisers. How scary is that?
Also Note: The above is all pre-Dubya, so when Obama whines about "the failed economic policies of the last 8 years", he's being pretty misleading. He is either ignorant or deceptive, I'm not sure which is worse.
Posted by noboresident on October 6, 2008 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm just getting here...has Bobcat blamed this on Obama yet?
Posted by spankymcgee on October 6, 2008 at 1:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Good news. McCain says the fundamentals of our economy are strong. Nothing to worry about.
Posted by truechangenotfauxchange on October 6, 2008 at 1:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Think Outside The Box...THINK Third Party!!
{p. 1247} The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people
{p. 1248} can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy. ...
From: Carroll Quigley, Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in our Time, Macmillan New York 1966. URL: http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/tr...
Posted by radford on October 6, 2008 at 1:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And shell have fun fun fun
til her daddy takes the t-bird away
(fun fun fun til her daddy takes the t-bird away)
Posted by darth on October 6, 2008 at 1:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
patriot007: (on endorsing Chuck Baldwin - constitutional party):
Just what we need right now, the former state chair of Jerry Falwell's Moral Minority to lead us right now.
I prefer a candidate who not only taught constitutional law at a leading university, but graduated the top of his class from the leading law school on the planet, to one whose undergraduate degree is a 'bible' diploma from Fallwell's Liberty U with his other academic endeavors consisting of Christian Bible College and Trinity Baptist College.
Seriously, haven't we had enough unqualified 'leaders' for you already?
Posted by Americans4Liberty on October 6, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
AIG Already Spent $61B of its Bailout
Monday, October 6, 2008 9:17 AM
American International Group has already taken $61 billion of the $85 billion loan offered to it by the U.S. Treasury, a decision that has credit-rating agencies scrambling to understand what happens next.
The insurance giant’s new CEO, Edward Liddy, told analysts in a conference call that much of the cash had gone to AIG’s structured-finance unit and to its securities lending business, as well as to daily operations, reports The New York Times.
The announcement led both Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s to immediately downgrade AIG.
“The $61 billion draw to date on the facility is much larger than we had previously anticipated,” Rodney A. Clark at Standard & Poor’s told the newspaper.
http://money.newsmax.com/streettalk/a...
Posted by mcmann on October 6, 2008 at 1:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
A good video on McCain's past with economic trouble here:
http://mccainkeatingfive.com/
Posted by barney on October 6, 2008 at 1:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh, I'm sure the diaper wearing, angry old man and MooseMama Palin will save us when they get to Washington and "shakethings up" and be all Mavericky and stuff.
Praise Jesus,
Drill baby drill!
Posted by patriot007 on October 6, 2008 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
darth: I didn't say I was endorsing anyone. I was just offering a quotation.
Considering that Obama used to teach Constitutional Law in Chicago, it's amazing how often he violates his oath of office by proposing things that are blatantly unconstitutional (and that more closely resemble the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto).
Posted by darth on October 6, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ok patriot007, challenge. Enlighten us with your constitutional law expertise by describing specifically how he proposed "things that are blatantly unconstitutional (and that more closely resemble the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto)."
The pulpit is yours.
Posted by IXLR82 on October 6, 2008 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"CEO got $300 million?? Wall Street has always been greedy but bringing this to light is going to help Obama tremendously."
Meanwhile, Franklin Raines and Jamie Garelick from the Clinton Administration, who were appointed to run Fannie Mae, made $175M forging documents to pump up results. At the exact same time the nation was calling for the heads of Enron execs, these two Clinton Appointees got off scott free. No Congressional hearing...nothing.
Glass houses. Politicians all suck.
Posted by Robert_Paul_Smoke on October 6, 2008 at 1:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
yep, barney -- gonna' be a whole lotta' shakin' goin' on --
think they'll have mutton at the inaugural dinner?
i hear the sheep have already been fleeced
Posted by mtbdad on October 6, 2008 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
So we gave'em the bailout and the markets continue to tank and credit is still tied up. Can we take it back?
And it we can I'd like to take away Bush's power to go to Iraq.
Posted by Americans4Liberty on October 6, 2008 at 1:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Paulson taps [35-year old] former Goldman Sachs executive to run $700 billion rescue program
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The administration has selected a former Goldman Sachs executive to be the interim head of its $700 billion rescue effort for financial institutions.
Neel Kashkari, the Treasury's assistant secretary for international affairs, was selected Monday to be the interim head of Treasury's new Office of Financial Stability.
The designation was made by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, who was the head of Goldman Sachs before he joined the Bush administration in 2006. Kashkari, 35, will head the office created by the emergency legislation enacted Friday to fund the largest government bailout in history.
**********
Brilliant move Paulson! As we used to say in the military -- BOHICA! (bend over, here it comes again)!
Posted by thefishheadsoup on October 6, 2008 at 1:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
you betcha old stogie - praise jesus.
Posted by patriot007 on October 6, 2008 at 1:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
To begin with, plank #2 is "heavy progressive income tax" (which will destroy the middle class). I can't find the authority for that in the U.S. Constitution. Nor can I find the authority for the billionaire banker bailout, his Global Poverty Act, mandatory community service, expanded faith-based initiatives, retroactive immunity for telecoms who violated our 4th amendment rights, etc.
But let's return to the topic at hand: "Wall Street plummets amid global sell-off."
Posted by thefishheadsoup on October 6, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
can you find anything in that pesky constitution about the spying on our own, patriot act, eavesdropping, or the first ever since the civil war federal armed forces being deployed on us soil as police?
who in their right mind would listen to bernanke, bush or paulson.
a country of idiots deserves idiot leaders. you betcha!
praise jesus.
Posted by moabite on October 6, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If the bailout bill hadn't passed the second time, and the market tanked like it has today, the bill's supporters would be saying "I told you so."
So, what excuse are they relying on? I'm curious.
Meanwhile, now that the fine print on the bill has been revealed, King Paulson has said he will pay tens of billions of dollars to private firms to manage the bailout. And he will hire whomever he wants to, and the hiring may not be reviewed. Oh, those boys at Golmand Sachs are SO good.....
From the NYT:
"In setting up the program, Mr. Paulson has relied on a cadre of former Goldman Sachs executives: Edward C. Forst, a former co-head of Goldman’s investment management business who is on leave from his job as executive vice president at Harvard; Kendrick R. Wilson III, formerly chairman of Goldman’s financial institutions groups; and Dan Jester, who was deputy chief financial officer at Goldman."
What a frickin' surprise!
TARP, indeed. Throw the TARP over the proceedings so we can't see where the money is going. And when it is all over, you can use the TARP to roll up the dead body of the US economy and throw it overboard.
Posted by thefishheadsoup on October 6, 2008 at 2:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
you betcha. let's talk straight to the american people, to the joe six packs and hockey moms. say it ain't so, joe. was that joe biden or joe six pack?
just what we need to run the country today, a crazy old codger who spent all that time in a box and an ignorant, witch hunting priest freak.
you betcha
praise jesus.
Posted by backrange on October 6, 2008 at 2:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Or, a current do-nothing Senator and a 30 year veteran of the Washington insiders.
Hate to break it to ya, that ain't any better.
Posted by truechangenotfauxchange on October 6, 2008 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
DON'T PANIC! The fundamentals are sound! Uncle Jay has no idea what that means but everybody says that. In this special episode, he explains just how the economy works, and why it doesn't work.
Enjoy Boys & Girls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1hT9R...
Posted by darth on October 6, 2008 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Patriot007:
I don't know about you, but typically individuals grossing over $250K annually are not considered 'middle class" and therefor I won't be taxed any extra.
A bailout, while not specifically described in the constitution, is provided for under the constitution by granting congress the power to appropriate funds. That's covered in 8th grade US History and I'm surprised you don't remember that. Don't get me wrong, I think its BS too (bailout of WS), but it is provided for in the constitution.
As for your other points, it was the administration and the GOP that pushed for the passage of the telecom immunity act. We'll have to see how that one day plays out in the Supreme Court (also IMO BS).
"heavy progressive" is your SUBJECTIVE adjective not defined in the constitution, but this is...
16th Amendment
"The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises [ . . . ] but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States [ . . . ][1]
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers [ . . . . ][2]
No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_t...
All about returning to the topic at hand, but you were the one who strayed off topic. I merely challenged you to backup your proclamation that Obama violated the constitution.
You can't.
Posted by thefishheadsoup on October 6, 2008 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
if you have read any of my posts, you would know that i believe the ds and rs represent two very tarnished sides of the same one party coin. neither represents my interests, but at least odamnus has a brain and biden seems sincere.
mcsame seems crazier and crazier as the days go on, and palin is an absolute joke.
praise jesus.
Posted by thefishheadsoup on October 6, 2008 at 2:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
i was and am strongly against the bailout. i think both sides have alot of blame in this. but mostly it is excess and entitlement - by the individuals who live way above their means, and the credit companies that solicit them with snake oil products that create indentured servitude, a complicit unethical government, no leadership george w fool, and investment bank firms and big financial industry players that securitized and resecuritized and insured and reinsured horrible debt. excess and entitlement!!!
Posted by barney on October 6, 2008 at 2:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
drill baby drill!
The fundamentals of the ecomony are strong! Yoo betchya!
Praise jesus!
drill baby drill!
Moose Mama Palin has all the good ideas!
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 2:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
a funny look at the tragedy unfolding........
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colb...
Posted by thefishheadsoup on October 6, 2008 at 2:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
if we go on the hunt for witches, we can solve all the problems. praise jesus.
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 2:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Actually, darth, what you quoted is what the Constitution said about imposing taxes prior to the 16th Amendment. That Amendment specifically authorized the income tax:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
Patriot, the Constitution clearly gives the President the power to ask the Congress to impose an income tax, and Congress clearly has the power to do so.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MikeEllis......
you couldn't be more wrong.........
The 16th Amendment was illegally passed......
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc...
Posted by brian on October 6, 2008 at 3:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's truly sad that people are as ignorant as walongloop and would defend this administration at any cost. He is most likely a one issue voter and just wishes to overturn Roe v. Wade.
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 3:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"The 16th Amendment was illegally passed......"
Another conspiracy theorist.
The 16th Amendment is real. Get over it. Pay your taxes like a good patriot or go to jail.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 3:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"In substance, the court holds that the Sixteenth Amendment did not empower the Federal Government to levy a new tax."
- New York Times, January 25, 1916
Posted by taoistblockhead on October 6, 2008 at 3:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA) Says Congress Threatened with Martial Law If Bailout Bill Is (was) Not Passed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_...
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/nod...
Posted by billy_goat_gruff on October 6, 2008 at 3:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The Market plunges to new low, stupid comments soar to new high.
Loopy has overdosed on Kool-Aid. Every electoral historian I have heard lately says economic problems help the Democrats in elections.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 3:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MikeEllis
Did you watch that video? It's almost 2 hours long so I can see why you wouldn't. You must work for the feds yourself to have that kind of attitude. You sound exactly like some of the government officials interviewed in that documentary. 'Do it or go to jail.' Very nice answer. Please post the statute online where it states we're required to pay income taxes.
Try educating yourself instead of trying to uphold your illusion of reality. Your government is committing fraud. It's no conspiracy.
The video is called America: Freedom to Fascism
Stop talking like a fascist and educate yourself. For as they say, the truth shall set you free.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc...
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Which one is it, funone? Was the 16th amendment never ratified, or or did it not give the government the power to levy income taxes? Quit changing your argument every time you are shown to be wrong.
1. The Amendment was ratified by 42 states. Only 36 were necessary.
2. Read the text of the amendment. "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes..."
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 3:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nope, funone, I don't watch videos that are linked to here. Not worth my time. If you have an argument to make, make it.
Like most conspiracy theorists, you seem to have a paranoid streak when someone points out the flaws in your theory.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
the only legal tax the IRS can collect is corporate taxes....... taxes on wages and labor are illegal.
Try watching that video Mike. I didn't come up with this stuff. I'm merely a student of history. It saddens me to see what my country is doing to it's citizens when I spent my life hearing about how wonderful this country is, being founded on liberty and freedom.
It's not a fun pill to swallow, the truth. But once you see the light, you can no longer live in darkness.
I don't want to argue with you about this, it's not my intention. But please, do yourself a favor and watch that documentary. Learn the facts. Listen to the experts from both sides and then tell me what you think.
These two videos have changed the way I see my country.
http://www.themoneymasters.com
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc...
They're not fun to watch. It makes you want to puke. But it's not propaganda. It's not conspiracy theory. It's the truth.
So watch the video Mike, or choose to forever remain an ignorant 'patriot'.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 3:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yeah Mike, not worth your time. Nor are you worth mine if that's the attitude you take. You're the kind of person who would have had Galileo burned at the stake. "I don't have time to look at the facts."
Please don't call yourself a patriot, the word for you is fascist.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 4:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
- Goethe
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Cool, I hadn't been called a fascist yet this week. I was wondering how long it would take.
Posted by ColoMtnHiker on October 6, 2008 at 4:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Neither candidate is going to save your sorry asses, get ready for a wild ride.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 4:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry Mike, but if the shoe fits wear it.
What amazes me is you have the time to argue your position, but you won't take the time to look at the facts. I cannot show you the hour and fifty minutes of documented interviews with congressmen or IRS agents that are contained in that video. The information is all there, it's up to you whether or not you want to look at it.
I love my country passionately. Always have and always will. The founding fathers established this country as a nation of free men. That power has been taken away from us through monetary control. Believe it or not.
But as they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
And by the way, I originally saw this video on your local PBS station a couple of weeks ago. Thankfully, it's posted in it's entirety on google videos so you can watch it for yourself for free. It's a documentary, plain and simple.
Learn the facts Mike. They're waiting for you right here -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc...
Posted by lindseyjoe on October 6, 2008 at 4:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Funone: can you explain, without linking to two-hour videos, WHY the 16th amendment was illegally passed? And if it was illegally passed, why a bajillion court cases since 1913 have utterly failed to prove that "fact?"
Ratification arguments have been unanimously rejected in courts ranging from the U.S. Tax Court to the Supreme Court and deemed fraudulent and frivolous. I'm with MikeEllis on this one, particularly since it only took you five posts to call him a fascist merely for disagreeing with you.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 4:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
lindseyjoe
what is fascist is to say, "do it or go to jail." The nazis said it somewhat differently at the Nuremberg trials, "We were just following orders."
And no, I cannot explain, what it took me to understand from this 2 hour video. That is why I'm posting the video. It's two hours worth of information. It has IRS agents, the IRS commissioner, congressmen, constitutional attorneys, etc. They go into all the different court cases, supreme court decisions, and arguments ad nauseum. I'm not going to post all this information when it's merely a click away from you.
Why is it so difficult for you and Mike to sit down and watch a documentary for yourself? Why aren't you capable of clicking your mouse like I am? Do you both also not have time to read books, but rather would just have the cliff notes recited to you? Do the work yourself.
Like I said, I saw it on PBS a few weeks ago. I didn't produce it. I'm just showing you it's there. The problem for you and Mike is that just by ignoring it's there won't make it go away and it doesn't make it any less real.
The world used to be flat. Remember? The earth used to be the center of the universe. Remember?
This video is 3.5 hours long. http://www.themoneymasters.com
It explains the creation of the Federal Reserve System. It starts from the formation of this country until present time. You want me to dissect all that into a one paragraph post as well? The only problem with it, is that it watches like an encyclopeadia. Very dry and boring because it's filled with historically documented facts. But again, I didn't come up with these. I'm merely trying to share the light.
Posted by IXLR82 on October 6, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Every electoral historian I have heard lately says economic problems help the Democrats in elections."
Goat, this hurts...a lot...ok...here goes: I agree with you.
I'm not throwing in the towel yet, but I've got it up with arm cocked. McCain seems to be losing control and Obama, much as I don't want to see him in the White House, has maintained a calm that seems to resonate in this turbulent time. He has absolutely nothing to offer in the face of this mess, but is subscribing to the saying: "it is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt".
Advantage: Obama. I'm not happy about it, but am being a realist.
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't really care if funone thinks I'm a fascist. I think funone is a conspiracy theorist, so I guess we're even.
I put little faith in people who are convinced enough by a two hour documentary that anybody who believes differently is a fascist, in people that don't understand the arguments behind their own beliefs well enough to explain them in their own words, or in people that aren't confident enough in their own beliefs to even use their own name when posting.
But that's just me.
Posted by zar13 on October 6, 2008 at 5 p.m. (Suggest removal)
United Banks of America.
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 5:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
IX, please don't throw in the towel. It is, after all, about the most massively useful thing an interstellar hitchhiker can have. And if things get much worse, many of us might be going on a lo-o-o-o-ng road trip.
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 5:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
P.S. Don't panic!
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 5:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Mike,
Ignorance is Bliss!
You will obviously have an extremely happy life based on that notion.
Also, you need to look up the word fascism in the dictionary, as you clearly do not understand it's meaning.
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
• (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
"Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach."
You are the one who has the intolerant view - you won't even look at what I've posted. Like I said, these ideas were not created by me, I'm merely trying to relay them to you. But for some reason, I must put them in my own words for you to listen. I do not need to regurgitate someone else's work to stroke my ego. I'll leave that up to you. The facts are there, it's your choice to ignore them.
Posted by spankymcgee on October 6, 2008 at 5:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Quit your whining. The fundamentals of the economy remain strong.
McCain/Palin/Bush/Cheney
Posted by siess on October 6, 2008 at 5:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
IXLR82:
You are probably right, but Obama will be the 2nd coming of Carter.
Nevertheless, if he gets in I hope he does his best and is successful in getting us out of this mess. I will tell you one thing, he won't have the wiggle room to raise taxes or do all these fancy programs. The money is not there any longer, due to all political parties.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 5:23 p.m.
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Posted by IXLR82 on October 6, 2008 at 5:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"IX, please don't throw in the towel. It is, after all, about the most massively useful thing an interstellar hitchhiker can have"
I knew I liked you for a reason, and it wasn't your position on the issues. Okay, I'll keep the towel for a while. I'll never, ever get rid of the Babel fish though....
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow, paranoid too!
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 5:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The Babel fish is the only way to make sense of the postings on this blog.
Posted by IXLR82 on October 6, 2008 at 5:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Or would you like me to stop by your home on 18th street and talk to you about it in person? Or is that you on Gapter Road?"
Dude, you just kind of crossed the line. I rarely agree with Mike, but he's one of the more rational posters up here. It takes some stones to use your real name, and he's got 'em. Posting his street was lame, and a complete violation of....well...I don't know....but something.
Besides, how do you know he didn't steal the name from someone he hates?
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 5:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I admit it. I've been using IXLR82's real name all these many years.
Posted by funone on October 6, 2008 at 5:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
IX
I did not post the entire address as I could have. He chose to put his name up online and it's public information and anyone can find it in seconds to locate his address. That's why it's incredibly stupid to post your personal information online. If you want to stroke your ego by saying how manly you are because you identify yourself online, that's your problem.
And I don't see what's so rational about making an argument and then bashing down the rebuttal that you refuse to even look at (kind of reminds me of a debate I just watched). They're asking for facts - I posted the facts - in the form of a 2 hour documentary I watched on PBS that is available on google videos.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc...
This country was founded by men who were tired of paying the tyrannical taxes imposed on them. Mike is trying to tell me that is what makes a good patriot. Just pay your taxes or go to jail. It's complete idiocy. Yet, I'm called a conspiracy theorist. I prefer that much more than expressing fascist views. Again, look it up in the dictionary if you're confused.
Such is life. It's been real - I bid you gentlemen ado.
P.S. There's a good comedian on Comedy Central these days - he's doing a show called - "You Can't Fix Stupid" - I suggest you tune in.
Posted by zar13 on October 6, 2008 at 6:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
sheeez!
Posted by ncahmncents on October 6, 2008 at 7:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by MikeEllis on October 6, 2008 at 5:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"IX, please don't throw in the towel. It is, after all, about the most massively useful thing an interstellar hitchhiker can have. And if things get much worse, many of us might be going on a lo-o-o-o-ng road trip."
NIIIce!!!
Obscure, good timing and very funny!!
Nice job mikeEllis
made my day
Posted by Ralphie2 on October 6, 2008 at 8:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"The fundamentals of our economy are strong" -- John McCain
www.KeatingEconomics.com
Posted by Buttafuoco on October 6, 2008 at 8:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm an undecided independent but after watching this one I'm getting closer to a decision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxgSub...
Posted by Ralphie2 on October 6, 2008 at 8:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
www.keatingeconomics.com
Posted by devastation on October 6, 2008 at 8:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Our economy, I think, is still -- the fundamentals of our economy are strong, but these are very, very difficult times," McCain, 9/15/2008
Not too difficult for mavericks with 7 houses and 13 cars!
Obama landslide coming 11/4.
Posted by zar13 on October 6, 2008 at 8:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
interesting videos. man, politics is ugly!
Posted by SirRealism on October 6, 2008 at 9:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
On September 10, 2001, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld held a press conference to disclose that over $2,000,000,000,000 in Pentagon funds could not be accounted for. Rumsfeld stated: "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions."
Posted by FuriousB on October 6, 2008 at 10:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This is just a mental recession, people. Stop whining. But, just in case it's the real thing I was wondering if anyone would help me with my mortgage for the next year or so?
Posted by darth on October 6, 2008 at 10:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MikeEllis: Thnx for clarifying. all i was trying to point out is that congress has the authority to impose income tax. regardless, the bailout had nothing to do with income tax, at least directly. how the treasury decides to pay back the $810B is irrelevant. they are likely going to insure it with (perhaps worthless) us savings bond/treasury bonds owned by saudis as the chinese have stated they aren't interested in owning more US securities. it's up to future US generations to decide how (or if they can) to pay off the debt.
thank you g.w. bush for depleting the us treasury. is anyone really surprised? that's been a neocon agenda item for a long time. g.w. bush is the quintessential traitor (remember valerie plame?)
GOP, blame yourself ONLY for bringing this country to the brink of total financial destruction. ONLY!!! morons!!!
Posted by darth on October 6, 2008 at 10:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
GOP == "I got mine, everybody else F*ckOff"
Posted by trifid on October 7, 2008 at 1:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Fall,baby, fall!
Posted by FrictionSoul on October 7, 2008 at 4:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
pygmy_owl
you have it backwards. The market is saying 6-9 months from now we see things as being less profitable than today.
Companies use credit to open new markets, launch new products. Open the credit lines and they will still be on the hook if they fail to make good on opportunities. They don't pay employees with credit. Gas prices are absolutely undercutting the entire nationwide businesses way more than they are the local business.
But what are the opportunities in this consumer driven culture? The Bush Admin, with some early help from Clinton, has destroyed the economy as we know it.
That's good and bad. The bad is pretty straight forward. If you focus nationally, look at the economic infrastructure nationally, then 95% of all national businesses such as Wal-Mart have been defying the law of diminishing returns for many years via local and national tax breaks where they in fact do not invest any money in their community. That plus the way the stock market is gamed means they have no roots locally. Bear in mind the market is mostly want-driven.
But the good? Nobody seems to be talking about opportunities to restructure our society. I think everything will go local small again and focus on needs. Remember Business 101? Businesses that meet needs tend to be even keeled and ride out the cycles that should actually kill off the non-local, expensive, consumption driven businesses.
The best bet is to support the locally owned businesses such as Sunflower (ask Mike Gilliland how he feels about Wall St. - or just accept that Sunflower will always remain a private company) and any of the farms at the farmers market. Hey, even now there is still a lot of food in the fields.
Posted by DianeMad on October 7, 2008 at 10:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
McCain is already talking about "cutting the budget". Bet you can't guess what will be cut. Not military spending. Not goodies for fat cats. Not freebies for CEO's and their ilk. What will be cut is medicare, social security, and welfare among other programs. Of course for all of the rich Boulderites they need not worry. That is unless you lose your money or you are old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_t...
If a country is judged on how they treat their children, the old, the sick and the poor - we will be rated in the minus territory. After all, every country is good to their greedy and their wealthy.
Posted by coloradocrow on October 7, 2008 at 10:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The transitive property of the current financial crisis:
Freddie and Fannie (formed by Dems) and their unregulated sub-prime loans are the primary cause of this global crisis.
The Dems blocked any attempt to overhaul or regulate these agencies because it would hurt lower income buyers from getting a loan (exactly jackasses!) and also because they were paid off by both agencies (Barack was the 2nd highest paid off politician by the agencies with Christopher Todd (D) and John Kerry (D) as 1st and 3rd).
The financial crisis is incontrovertibly due to actions of the Democrats and they are successfully making fools of those that believe otherwise.
To see more, watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3...
Posted by phoenix_rises on October 7, 2008 at 10:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
coloradoEATcrow,
1) Barak received the 2nd highest amount of donations from EMPLOYEES of Fannie and freddie. What about 'donations' from board members and their lobbyist? Wow, McCain received over $163,000 while Barack only $16,000. So, McCains donations from the fannie/freddie board members and their lobbyist only exceed Barak's donations from board members, their lobbyists, AND their employees.
2) How could the Dems block such attempts of the DEREGULATION party when the Repubs controlled the House, the senate, and the white house?
3) Bush called for MORE loans and RELAXED restrictions to lower income groups in a speech made in October, 2002.
Enjoy your crow!
Posted by brian on October 7, 2008 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Buttafuoco,
I suggest you watch this video before making your mind up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moi...
Posted by brian on October 7, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
coloradocrow,
Since you need a youtube video to explain things, you could learn a lot from the video above as well.
Posted by billy_goat_gruff on October 7, 2008 at 9:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't watch any of your crappy videos.
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